登录 

印度DRDO与法国公司就卡维利飞机引擎的失败进行讨论

来源:  BBSGood社区    时间:2019-08-23 09:30:06   关注:136   转发


DRDO, French company talks on Kaveri jet engine crash


印度国防研究与发展组织与法国公司就卡维利飞机引擎的失败进行讨论


NEW DELHI: The plan to develop the indigenous Kaveri fighter jet engine as part of the Rafale offsets deal with the help of French technology is believed to have fallen through after the Indian side found the pricing prohibitive.


At least three people, who were part of the discussions, told ET that the project is now as good as over. The engine was supposed to power the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) as well as future fighter jets.


The talks with French engine manufacturer Safran, which makes the engines and electronics for the Rafale fighters, seem to have hit a roadblock after it emerged in detailed studies that only a part of the offsets — just over €250 million — could be utilised for the project. Defence Research and Development Organisation would have had to provide the remaining €500 million, said sources.


ET has learnt that DRDO did not find this price reasonable and is no longer considering the upgraded Kaveri engine for the next batch of 83 LCAs to be made in India or the Mark-2 version of the jet planned in the near future. The fighter jets are now likely to be powered by engines supplied by US’ General Electric. DRDO has spent more than €240 million on the Kaveri project so far without success.


据信,因印度方面认为定价过高而作为“阵风”战机补偿协议的一部分,印度自主研发卡维利战斗机引擎的计划已经失败。


至少有三名参与讨论的人士告诉ET,这个项目已经结束了。该引擎曾被希冀为本土轻型战斗机以及未来的战斗机提供动力。


印度与法国引擎制造商赛峰集团的谈判似乎遇到了障碍,有详细研究显示,用于该项目的补偿仅为2.5亿欧元。赛峰集团为“阵风”战斗机生产引擎和电子产品。消息人士称,国防研究与发展组织将不得不补上剩余的5亿欧元。


ET得知国防研究与发展组织认为价格不合理,并且不再考虑下一批在印度生产的83轻型战斗机或计划在不久的将来推出的Mark-2型飞机升级卡维利引擎。这些战斗机现在可能由美国通用电气提供的引擎提供动力。到目前为止,国防研究与发展组织已经在卡维利项目上花费了超过2.4亿欧元,但没有成功。


timg.jpg


Four Years of Work Needed


As per the Rafale contract, French companies have to invest 3.4 billion euros worth of offsets in India by 2023. Of these, Safran alone has to execute offsets in excess of 580 million euros. The company, sources said, is now struggling to fulfil its obligations.


Other firms undertaking offsets for the Rafale deal — Dassault, Thales and missile manufacturer MBDA — have already submitted detailed plans to execute their obligations and have commenced work with Indian partners.


Sources told ET that advanced talks on reviving the Kaveri engine took place between DRDO and the French manufacturer, which were followed by a detailed project assessment, which brought out that four years of work was needed to get the engine back on track.


需要四年的努力


根据阵风战机的合同,到2023年,法国公司必须在印度投资34亿欧元。其中,仅赛峰一家就必须执行超过5.8亿欧元的补偿交易。消息人士称,该公司目前正努力履行其义务。


其它为“阵风”交易提供补偿的公司——达索、泰雷兹和导弹制造商MBDA——已经提交了履行其义务的详细计划,并已开始与印度合作伙伴合作。


消息人士向《经济学人》透露,国防研究与发展组织和这家法国制造商就重启卡维利引擎进行了深入会谈,随后进行了详细的项目评估,结果显示,要让引擎重回正轨,需要四年的努力。


As per the proposal being discussed, the Kaveri engine, which was more or less abandoned as a project in 2014 since it did not provide enough thrust for the fighter jets, was to be modified into a worldclass product with transfer of technology as well as manufacturing rights.


Engines are the most critical systems on fighter jets, and few nations have been able to master the technology to manufacture them. Rough estimates show that for a fleet of 200 LCAs in service, the cost of engines alone would be in excess of 25 billion euros over the lifecycle of the planes.


India has been struggling to develop its own combat jet engine despite efforts stretching over two decades. Efforts are also on to develop a graded down ‘Ghatak’ version of the Kaveri engine for use in the unmanned aerial combat vehicle being developed by India.


根据尚在讨论中的提议,卡维利引擎将被改造成世界一流产品,同时拥有技术转让和制造权。2014年,由于未能为战斗机提供足够的推力,卡维利引擎项目曾被搁置。


引擎是战斗机上最关键的系统,很少有国家掌握制造引擎的技术。粗略的估计显示,对于一支200架服役的轻型战斗机队来说,飞机服役期间单单引擎的成本就将超过250亿欧元。


尽管印度20多年来一直在努力研发自己的战斗机引擎,但一直举步维艰。此外,印度还在努力开发卡维利引擎的“加塔克”级改进型,用于印度正在研发的无人机。


印度经济时报读者的评论:


译文来源:三泰虎 http://www.santaihu.com/48288.html  译者:Joyceliu


外文:http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/


Rahul Sharma


DRDO scientists and engineers have done a good job in developing the Kaveri engine. No country in this world developed a successful engine with the meager amount of money that they put in the Kaveri project. We need to make the engine a national priority. The shortcomings of the engine can be overcome if adequate funding and importance are accorded to the project.


国防研究与发展组织的科学家和工程师在研发卡维利引擎方面做得很好。世界上没有任何一个国家能用他们投入到卡维利项目的微薄资金研发出成功的引擎。我们需要把引擎作为国家的重点。如果对该项目给予足够的资金和重视,就可以克服这一引擎的缺点。


 


St Mumbai



  • · ·· ··The French have an agenda of their own -- that is either bagging an order for at least 36 more twin-engine Rafale fighters from the Air Force or the Navy''s requirement of 57 carrier-based fighters. (The twin-engine Rafale-M serves aboard the nuclear-powered French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle.) Boeing has offered to set up an F/A-18 Super Hornet production facility in India. “We are talking about creating a next-generation facility in India. We think the Super Hornet is the most advanced airplane that India could manufacture,” Dan Gillian, Boeing’s program manager for the F/A-18 and EA-18G, said. The Super Hornets are powered by General Electric afterburning turbofan engines. So is the Tejas LCA. We should work towards getting General Electric to set up an aircraft engine production facility under ''Make in India''.


法国有自己的计划——要么从空军获得至少36架双引擎阵风战斗机的订单,要么从海军获得57架舰载战斗机的订单。(法国戴高乐号核动力航空母舰上搭载的是双引擎“阵风M”。)波音公司已经提出要在印度建立一个F/A-18超级大黄蜂生产基地。“我们正在讨论在印度建立新一代设施。我们认为超级大黄蜂是印度能够制造的最先进的飞机。超级大黄蜂由通用电气的加力涡轮风扇引擎提供动力。光辉战机也是如此。我们应该努力让通用电气在“印度制造”项目下建立一个飞机引擎生产设施。


 


bharat wankhede


Kaveri engine is not a failure. Kaveri engine is under powered. Its suitable for UAV.We need to invest more funds to develop it. Its better to invest now and save 25 Billion Euros. No country will share such tech at low price.


卡维利引擎并不是失败品。卡维利引擎只是动力不足。适用于无人机。我们需要投入更多的资金来进行研发。最好现在就投资,节省250亿欧元。没有一个国家会以低价分享这些技术。


 


St Mumbai


@Bharat Wankhede: The Kaveri engine (GTX-35VS) has been able to generate a thrust of 82 kN (18,000 lbf). Being underpowered it can''t be the powerplant for any single engine aircraft. But, can''t it power the Tejas Mk-2 -- a MWF, if it is modified to be a twin-engine fighter??


卡维利发动机(GTX-35VS)能够产生82 kN (18000 lbf)的推力。由于动力不足,它不可能成为任何单引擎飞机的动力装置。但是,如果把光辉Mk-2改装成双引擎战斗机,不能用它提供动力吗?


 


Ram Nath


Reverse engineering as a project term exam in IIT should be a must.. Stripping some old and new engines and learning intricacies with innovating and improving the engine performance should be part of the project... It is well known that the japs American and even Brits have reverse engineered


将逆向工程设为印度理工学院的学期考试项目,是必须的。剥离一些旧的和新的发动机,学习复杂的创新和提高发动机性能应该是项目的一部分…众所周知,日本、美国甚至英国都进行了逆向工程。


 


arun kumar


Why we are still dependent so much on others? Can''t we work on our own like ISRO?


为什么我们到现在还这么依赖别人?我们就不能像ISRO那样独立展开工作吗?


 


Ram Nath


DRDO officer goes home for lunch.. After nap returns in Time for tea... What do you expect


DRDO官员每天中午回家吃个午饭。睡个午睡,然后赶回来喝茶……你还能指望什么?


 


Arman S


pathetic...so many IIT and IIM and we cannot make one engine.


真是可悲……我们有印度理工学院和印度管理学院,却无法造出一个引擎。


 


Sunny Cal


I am not sure that the best engineers and scientists are working on these sophisticated projects. By the way, IIM people are paper pushers and don''t contribute anything to the real need- engineering, research and scientific advancements. The best scientists and engineers are leaving for jobs in western countries.


我不确定最好的工程师和科学家是否参与了这些复杂的项目。顺便说一下,印度管理学院的人都是官僚,对真正的需求——工程、研究和科学进步——没有任何贡献。最优秀的科学家和工程师为了西方国家的工作都远走他乡了。


 


St Mumbai


@Arman S(Del): Engineering jobs don''t pay that well. Majority of the IIM alumni join foreign banks, consulting firms or FMCG companies for fat salaries. Almost all alumni from IIT and top engineering schools go abroad for PG and don''t return. So we have Indians heading global companies like Google, Microsoft, Adobe, NetApp, SanDisk, Global Foundries, MasterCard, Nokia, Deutsche Bank, Reckitt Benckiser, Harman Intl., Pepsi (till recently), SoftBank Internet and Media (not currently). Of course there are more.


工程类工作的薪水不高。大多数印度管理学院的毕业生加入外资银行、咨询公司或快速消费品公司,获得高薪。几乎所有来自印度理工学院和顶尖工程院校的校友都出国攻读PG课程,不会选择回国。因此,我们印度人领导着跨国公司,如谷歌、微软、Adobe、NetApp、SanDisk、全球铸造厂、万事达、诺基亚、德意志银行、利洁时、哈曼国际、百事可乐(最近)、软银互联网和媒体(目前还没有)。这样的例子数不胜数。


 


Shaji


Govt. employees'' pensions need to be reformed to earn-as-you-go so that their pensions come out of their own savings and investments and not from taxpayers'' funds - this is the only way to create space for modernizing the armed forces.


政府雇员的养老金“需要改革到量入为出,这样他们的养老金就会来自他们自己的储蓄和投资,而不是来自纳税人的钱”——这是为军队现代化创造空间的唯一途径。


 


St Mumbai


@Subramaniam S: We should take a fresh look at the engine for indigenous fighter aircraft program. Maybe the new name even, which could be a shortened form of Brahmaputra. After all the BrahMos program, which derives its name from the Brahmaputra is doing very well.


我们应该重新审视国产战斗机项目的引擎。也许该起个新名字,可以是雅鲁藏布江的缩写。毕竟布拉莫斯计划做得很好,它的名字就源于雅鲁藏布江。


 


St Mumbai


@Subramaniam S: There is really nothing to analyse. The French logic is evident. Safran now powers and/or equips 65% of India''s airplanes and helicopters. If we use of the M-88-3 turbofan engine core as a base for developing a new Kaveri engine, it will ensure that the French will permanently be part the Kaveri program also. Safran will get royalties and regular order for spares.


真的没什么好分析的。法国的逻辑是很明显的。赛峰现在为印度65%的飞机和直升机提供动力和/或装备。如果我们使用M-88-3涡扇发动机核心作为开发新卡维利发动机的基础,这将使法国永远成为卡维利计划的一部分。赛峰将获得特许权使用费和定期备件采购订单。


 


Nemam Natarajan Pasupathy


Good it is called off. DRDO has neither the technical know how nor the advanced infrastructure for fabrication. All along they have only been assembling imported components and claiming the end product as their own. Every single project DRDO has started had tremendous cost and time over run without successful completion.


很好,项目取消了。DRDO既没有技术知识也没有先进的制造基础设施。一直以来,他们只会组装进口部件,号称最终产品是他们自己完成的。每一个DRDO启动的项目在没有成功完成的情况下都耗费了巨大的运行成本和时间。


 


St Mumbai


@Nemam Natarajan Pasupathy:Who do you think developed the Agni series of missiles??You may not think highly of the capabilities of the Agni-V -- an intercontinental ballistic missile developed by DRDO. But, China decided to play it safe and decided to buy the S-400 Trumph air defence system from Russia -- the best defence in the world against air-borne threats. Other missiles developed by DRDO: Prithvi, Trishul, Akash and Nag. DRDO has also developed a Man Portable Anti-Tank Guided Missile.


你以为是谁研发了烈火系列导弹?你可能对印度国防研究与发展组织研发的洲际弹道导弹Agni-V的能力评价不高。但是,中国决定谨慎行事,决定从俄罗斯购买S-400防空系统——世界上对付空中威胁的最佳防御系统。DRDO开发的其他导弹包括:Prithvi、Trishul、Akash和Nag。DRDO还开发了一种便携式反坦克导弹。


 


Nemam Natarajan Pasupathy


Though the popular saying " it is not rocket science", rocket science is much more easy to fabricate than systems which have moving parts. DRDO does not have the wherewithal to master composites and critical metallurgical components needed for Turbo prop or Jet engines. It is a fact tht even for field guns or howitzers they have to depend on third party vendors. A rocket or a missile on the other hand is a single use item. Compared to DRDO, ISRO has advanced leaps and bounds. The BDL which is the model producer of missiles and rockets for the Army has no orders on its books for a single product except from the Indian Armed Forces.As far as the history of development of Insas weapon system, I don''t need to say anything. Just go through Wikipedia and trace the history of development of UAV, Awacs, Howitzer, MBRL etc. What was the time frame and cost of development. Even items like HAHO parachute, extreme cold shelters, bullet proof vests , you name it. DRDO had announce development of Bio toilets. How many of their design or product is used by the railways? Their mosquito repellent cream is sold only through CSD canteens and perhaps that is also stopped. They can take credit for inventing " Pulihora" ( Tamarind rice) for issue to troops on extended long range patrolling! But my great grand mother and all the Vishnu temples in Tamil nadu/ Andhra knew of it centuries agao!


虽然现在有个流行的说法“这并不复杂”,但火箭科学比有运动部件的系统更容易制造。DRDO没有必要的资金来掌握涡轮螺旋桨或喷气发动机所需的复合材料和关键冶金部件技术。这是一个事实,就连野战炮或榴弹炮,也必须依赖第三方供应商。另一方面,火箭或导弹是一个单一用途的武器。与DRDO相比,ISRO有了很大的飞跃。陆军导弹和火箭的标准生产商BDL,除了来自印度军方的订单外,没有其他任何订单。查阅维基百科,追溯无人机、预警机、榴弹炮、MBRL等的研发历史。研发时间和成本有多少?甚至像HAHO降落伞,极端寒冷的避难所,防弹背心,你能想到的都一样。DRDO宣布研发了生物厕所。他们的设计或产品有多少被铁路采用了?他们的驱蚊膏只在惩教署的食堂出售,搞不好也停售了。他们可以把发明“Pulihora”(罗望子米)的功劳归功于向部队发放的远程巡逻!但我的曾祖母和泰米尔纳德邦/安得拉邦所有的毗瑟奴寺庙几百年前就知道了!


 


Dr Mahesh


BETTER MAKE WITH RUSSIA. DONT INDIGENIZE, JUST DO PARTNERSHIP AND MAKE ENGINES. CHEERS


最好和俄罗斯搞好关系。不要国产,只要合作,制造引擎。干杯


 


St Mumbai


@Dr Mahesh: Russia wouldn''t be keen on a partnership to make a turbofan engine for aircrafts because they have a more lucrative ongoing business. The AL31FP engine of the Su-30 MKI is assembled at HAL unit at Koraput. The RD-33 series–III engine of the MiG-29 is also licence manufactured at Koraput. Then there is the supply of spares and consumables that is required during engine maintenance & overhaul. No other country has these many Russian/Soviet military aircraft.


俄罗斯对为飞机制造涡轮风扇发动机的合作没有多大兴趣,因为他们有更加有利可图的业务。苏-30 MKI的AL31FP发动机是在Koraput的HAL装置上装配的。米格-29的RD-33系列iii发动机也许可在Koraput制造。此外,还有发动机维修和大修期间所需的备件和消耗品。没有其他国家拥有这么多俄罗斯/苏联军用飞机。


 


St Mumbai


@Dr Mahesh:When it comes to transfer of technology, Russia is not too keen. The Air Force and Navy are their cash cows. Among the reasons why the collaboration with Russia''s Sukhoi for development of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) fell through after 10 years was because: 1) Russia''s reluctance to share source code of the flight control software; 2) shortcomings of the proposed engine.


@Dr Mahesh:谈到技术转让,俄罗斯并不积极。空军和海军是他们的摇钱树。与俄罗斯苏霍伊合作研发第五代战斗机(FGFA) 10年后失败的原因之一是:1)俄罗斯不愿共享飞行控制软件的源代码;2)发动机有缺陷。


 


Prasad Swain


MOST OF HERE ARE ASKING TO TAKE HELP OF RUSSIA. WELL RUSSIA HAS DENIED TO HELP INDIA IN THIS MATTER. ALSO RUSSIA HAS DENIED TO SHARE 5TH GENERATION FIGHTER TECHNOLOGY TO INDIA. SO INDIA HAS TRIED EVERYTHING BEFORE GOING WITH FRENCH GOVERNMENT.


这里的大多数人都要求寻求俄罗斯的援助。俄罗斯拒绝在这个问题上帮助印度。俄罗斯也拒绝与印度共享第五代战斗机的技术。所以印度在与法国政府合作之前已经想尽办法了。


 


St Mumbai


When it comes to transfer of technology, Russia is reluctant to do so.


涉及技术转让,俄罗斯不愿意。


 


Office Mails


change the name to narmada.


将名字改为纳尔莫达。


 


Skanda B


Our engineers and scientists have successfully designed and manufactured rocket engines for ISRO and here the guys at HAL unable to design a fighter jet engine really needs to be investigated thoroughly. All defence related production are plagued with some controversy, i suspect the overseas vendors are involved in this to keep their business going.Modi''s next priority should be the indigenous defence manufacturing sector. Things here need to be set in order on a war footing.


我们的工程师和科学家已经成功地为ISRO设计和制造了火箭发动机,而印度斯坦航空那些无法设计战斗机发动机的人真的该被彻底调查一番。所有与国防相关的生产都存在一些争议,我怀疑海外供应商参与其中是为了维持他们的业务。莫迪的下一个重点应该是本土国防制造业。这里的事情需要在战争的基础上做好准备。


 


A Singh


India should learn to do reverse engineering like the Russians, Chinese and the Japanese.


印度应该像俄罗斯、中国和日本那样学习逆向工程。


 


St Mumbai


Even for reverse engineering there must be a definite plan.


即使是逆向工程,也必须有一个明确的计划。


 


ksridhar ksridhar


Our scientists have been doing that for the last 70 years. How do you think we are able to launch satellites and send rockets in to space?


我们的科学家在过去的70年里一直都是这么做的。不然你以为我们是怎么发射卫星和火箭到太空的?


 


Sudhir


Put to use the brains from premier IIT institues.


要好好利用印度理工学院的一流聪明才智。


相仿文章
相同栏目

浙ICP备15039925号-2    部分网站可能在中国大陆地区无法访问,请谅解!
隐私提醒:本站使用了Cookie,帮助用户提供更好的服务。